The ALX Show

Welcome to the ALX show your
premier source for DFW real

estate data and insights.

Let's get to it.

Brandon Giella: Hello and welcome back
to yet another episode of the ALX show.

I have with me as always,
Josh Alexander, Patrick Dunn.

Thank you both for joining me.

Uh, how's it going guys?

How are you doing this Tuesday?

Josh Alexander: Grinding away.

No, It's, it's a, it's,
we're, we're doing good.

We talked last week a little bit
about, um, you know, some storm

damage on one of the properties.

We've gotten that resolved,
uh, which has been good.

We, we, that, that, you know, one lesson
there, um, Is have somebody on your team.

We've got Christian.

He's sitting here next to me,
have somebody on your team.

You know, that is great on the operation
side, understands whatever it is you're

in, but just understands how to do
things effectively and efficiently.

We have that on ours.

So thankfully that that played in
our favor big time because we were

looking at initial quotes that were
much higher than what we actually paid.

So it's just a good lesson to learn.

I mean, you know, control what you
can and, you know, find, find the

right people to work with and Uh,
make some of those like seemingly, you

know, really hard or bad situations.

Not so bad.

Right?

It's just, it's just
another, another reminder.

It's all about the people.

Brandon Giella: that's right.

That's right.

All about the people and being on
the ground, boots on the ground.

People to actually making things

Josh Alexander: You got to jump in.

Yep.

Brandon Giella: to jump in.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Get your hands dirty.

Love that.

Well, speaking of getting your
hands dirty, uh, the last couple of

years has been kind of a challenging
environment for real estate, but

to put it mildly, put it vaguely.

Uh, so we were talking about.

Last week, um, you know, tornadoes and
tariffs, and there's lots of other things

that have been impacting real estate.

But one of the key things that have been
driving the market over the last couple of

years has been inflation and as a result,
interest rates and, and things like that.

And so today we were gonna talk about.

Uh, the last couple of years, as you guys
see it, how inflation has affected, uh,

real estate in general in North Texas, but
especially the, on the commercial sector,

uh, and what you guys are seeing there.

And so Josh, you, you've got
some, um, some insight there.

Patrick has some numbers, but
then also what to look forward to.

I mean, what is 2025 going
to bring about this year?

I mean, obviously uncertain.

Nobody knows the future.

I have no idea what will
happen this afternoon.

What are some things that you
guys are paying attention to and,

and looking, looking forward to?

So, Josh, I'll start with you.

Tell me, tell me as you see it, the
story of the last three or so years, uh,

especially, uh, on the inflation side of
things, the interest rate side of things,

and how you're seeing that develop in, in
the markets you're paying attention to.

Josh Alexander: Yeah.

Low inflation to high inflation, low
interest rates to high interest rates

is the story of the last three years and
now we're starting to see some relief.

All right in inflation.

I mean it's come it's come down pretty
dramatically from where it was we'll

get the cpi out tomorrow and and we'll
see, you know how we're doing currently,

but um for commercial real estate yeah,
it's You hear a lot about the interest

rate side of it not as much about Um,
some of the expense challenges, uh,

inflation related expense challenges,
um, talking about, uh, taxes, insurance,

um, you know, really, taxes, I guess,
came along more about the elevated values

from when interest rates were so low.

Um, then we didn't have a lot of
transaction volume, so there wasn't

a lot of comps to really argue down.

Taxes.

So, um, so maybe not taxes weren't
directly related to some of these

other things as as related to inflation
and some of these other expenses,

but still a big factor, right?

But insurance for sure.

And when it costs more, when a claim
costs more for a provider, they're

going to require a higher premium.

And that's what that's what inflation did.

Um, repair and maintenance, just the
cost to get things done, payroll,

um, a lot of things that go in,
utilities, I mean, things that go

into managing and running commercial
real estate apartments specifically

for us all got more expensive.

Um, and then on on top of increasing
debt service as rates go up, um, and

what people I'm sure people, you know,
get this, maybe don't think about it too

much, but you sign rents for 12 months in
the, in the multifamily side commercial

could be 1 to 3 years, sometimes
longer, um, and, and those, those

rents are set for that period of time.

So as expenses are going up, if they go
up quickly, You know, within that term,

you don't have a way to offset those.

Your cashflow is set.

You, you, you, it's set and then
you've got to go collect it.

But, but that your revenue is what it is.

And then you've got to find ways
to manage the increasing expenses,

trying to get more efficient.

But in some cases,
expenses are just going up.

You can be as efficient as you
want, but it costs what it costs.

So there's been lots of, that
has been an ongoing thing.

We're starting to see though.

Um, where rent growth was, uh, stagnant
or, you know, was, um, uh, rent,

rents were actually decreasing, uh,
in some markets much more than others

here in DFW, slightly decreasing.

We are starting to see signs that,
um, they're increasing again.

And that's, that's a matter of supply.

There's just not enough housing.

Uh, so, so we, we see that things are
starting, starting to look better.

If you're, if you're.

A commercial property, multifamily
investor here in DFW, then you're,

you're starting to get more optimistic.

We're getting closer to it, Um,
we're seeing some expenses come

back in, uh, maybe not grow as fast,
but we're also seeing that rent

growth come back, which is huge.

And those of you paying attention,
you'll see like on the 10 year,

uh, yields are coming back in.

Um, so that helps out quite a bit too.

And so we'll see, we'll see
if we can continue that trend

with yields moving down.

Um, in addition to rent growth.

In addition to more manageable
expenses, um, things are going

to start to look a lot better.

Brandon Giella: Yeah, I saw a headline
yesterday about treasuries, uh,

coming down just because the past
couple of days markets have been

down and I know that, you know,

Josh Alexander: lot of volatility, right?

I mean, people aren't sure
what to expect the, um, trade

policies driving a lot of that.

Uh, so when people aren't sure, uh, that
they're going to rush to, to safer assets,

that's, that's what we're seeing, right?

They're getting out of the risky
stuff and going to the safer stuff.

So, but that helps us that if they push
into the treasuries, then, um, then,

then, uh, that pushes the yields down.

And then we benefit from that.

Everybody in commercial real estate
and everybody that's looking to buy

a home mortgages benefit from that,
that those come in as well too.

Uh, as, as the tenure comes in.

Brandon Giella: What's your thought
on, uh, has Um, you know, working

from home in, in North Texas or maybe
in Austin, you mentioned before we

started recording Austin market.

Um, have you seen any of that impacting
the commercial real estate side and how

that might be affecting that market where
a lot of people are working from home for

a lot of different companies, but then
you have companies that are demanding

people come back to the office as well.

Does that play a part
in any of this at all?

Josh Alexander: Uh, very much.

Yeah, that if there's not a high
demand for that office space and

they can't raise rents, right?

And they experienced a lot of the
same costs that I just talked about.

Um, you know, over the last several years
and they need rents to go up, uh, in

order to be in a better financial position
on a lot of these office buildings.

So if there's not a demand, if people
are working from home, employers

aren't requiring people to come back
or maybe they're doing a hybrid hybrid.

Okay.

Work week, so they don't need
as much space as they as they

once did so they're downsizing.

It's just it's all about the demand for
the space Um, less demand means less rent.

So that's, that's, that's hurting
property owners, um, in different areas.

I think, I think it's also
dependent on location.

Some of the, you know, if you're in
Dallas or Fort Worth or Las Colinas or

some of the other major cities, major
metro areas, you're probably seeing a

lot more demand than if these office
buildings that are, um, you know, out

in the suburbs are kind of like the mid
tier spaces, uh, where, and they're,

and especially if they're older.

Um, I mean, they're, they're probably
seeing, uh, probably still hurting,

um, just because there's just the,
the cultural shift or the behavior

change around working from home has
just impacted demand for that, for that

space and employers, and it depends a
lot of times if employers think I need

you guys to come back in order to be
more productive, then they're going to

require that, or they're going to find
employees that are willing to come back.

But I think in a lot of cases, especially
on the hybrid model, they realize, well,

maybe they're just as productive, you
know, two days in or three days in and

so that so it's a more permanent shift,
uh, to where a lot of these commercial

property owners in these areas are gonna
have to figure out, you know what to do or

unfortunately just take a loss in value.

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Yeah, I heard from a friend of mine.

He does some, some work with,
uh, government agencies in DC.

And he said a lot of the people that
he works with, his clients, uh, they're

crammed into like conference rooms
because of the, um, the emphasis or

need to, for what the dog and the
president are saying that people

need to come back to the office.

But they don't have the space.

And so now there's just a bunch of people.

He said, just find a chair,
sit on the ground, you know,

whatever, but bring your laptop.

And that's kind of the
situation DC right now.

That's what I hear.

So that was kind of interesting.

Josh Alexander: I think the general
general consensus I hear is people are

more productive in the office, right?

It just depends.

I think the ones like the ones that went
that made the total change COVID came

and you know, they're traditionally they
were in the office five day a week type

culture and then they, you know, tried
to change or had for forced to change.

It's cool because it's just
learning how to use it.

It's like what do you do with it?

It's just learning how to use it.

And you know, sometimes it's like,
Hey, I'm going to have to have

a donator, like I had to have a
contractor like, I was going to have

to have a And then I'm going to have
to have a donator for somebody else.

And I'm going to have
to have a contractor.

And I don't know if I'm going to be
getting coming into the business because

of it, but there's a lot of things
that people are really interested in.

And so I think it's a

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Huge debate.

Lots going on in there.

But industry, age group, tech
savvy, all that kind of stuff.

Josh Alexander: Right, right

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Uh, we'll switch gears a little bit.

So, so last year, you know, last couple
of years have Um, but what are you, what

are you guys thinking about the next, uh,
you know, a couple of months, next year,

2025, even, you know, next week, what are
some things that you guys are thinking

about when it comes to, um, you know, how
treasuries might be doing, but how you're

seeing inflation stick or not stick?

I mean, I know you said the CPI report
come out tomorrow, but, um, yeah,

what are you guys kind of paying
attention to and thinking about

in the next, next few weeks or so?

Patrick Dunne: Yeah, I mean, I think
the outlook right now economically

and interest rate wise and inflation
wise and all of that, um, for

multifamily owners is improving.

Um, I know there's a lot of, you
know, market uncertainty and all

that, but, um, you know, like the
outlook's improving, the, um, I think

pricing, like the price declines.

Um, and everything has bottomed, you
know, The Arbor, the big commercial

real estate firm put out a, uh, puts
out a quarterly report on, uh, small

balance loan portfolio that they have.

They originate a ton of Fannie and
Freddie loans and, um, small balances,

you know, classified as seven and a
half million dollar loans and under.

And they put out a report for the
previous quarter a couple weeks ago.

And the feedback in that report is
that, um, cap rates bottom in, you

know, third, fourth quarter 2024.

Values are starting to
improve a little bit.

And, um, the, uh, loan
originations are strong.

You know, Fannie and Freddie are
originating a good amount of volume

given the circumstances where we are.

So, uh, everything seems
to be, you know, improving.

And, uh, that's helpful for all of us.

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

I was about to say that.

That sounds great.

I'm excited about that.

Patrick Dunne: Yeah, I mean, the
question is going to be, you know,

how quickly does that really change?

Um, you know, small improvements
in value are, you know, helpful

movement in the right direction.

But, uh, you know, most Owners if they
want to make a move soon and, and get

out and provide a good return, are
gonna need a pretty notable increase in,

in values from where we bottomed out.

And so, um, now it's, it's a, a game
of patience and a game of capital.

And who has the capital to be
able to withstand the value

recovery are the ones who will,
you know, be the most successful.

And the ones who don't.

Um, are going to be the ones who end up
having to sell and getting out of it.

And, you know, we're starting to
hear whispers of that, you know, and

talking to other brokers and that
kind of thing is starting to happen.

Brandon Giella: So if I understand
you right, basically, whoever has

deeper pockets to wait out this next
season is going to be the ones who

would be successful on the other end.

Is that, is that what I'm hearing?

Yeah.

Interesting.

Josh Alexander: Yeah, the
guys are the groups that, um,

have strong financial backing.

Uh, you know, are the ones
that are still around really?

Probably.

I

mean, some may just have the incredibly
incredible operators and they could,

you know, figure some things out.

But, uh, I think the ones that the
financially strong are financially, um

Supported groups are going to be the ones
that should be able to get through this

with an emphasis on operations to I mean,
it's a, you know, there's, it's a, there's

a lot that goes on to, to ownership, um,
you know, that you've got, you've got to

be strong in all areas to survive, but,
uh, it's a lot of the groups that we see

that are getting, are getting hurt right
now are ones with big portfolios, um,

with lots of properties that are hurting.

And then it's really difficult, right?

To, to, uh, big portfolios, large
properties, several in bad places.

That's hard because now you're trying
to, um, cover, uh, you need a lot of

cash in a lot of different places.

And, um, that's a hard
sell a lot of times, right?

If, if, if you look across the
whole portfolio and it just looks

like there's a lot of leaks.

It can be hard to come up with the cash
and lenders will only be so patient.

So, you know, if you, if you bought a
ton of property in up until 2022, let's

say like loaded up in 2020 through
2022 and you bought the big properties

and the expensive properties and
you put a lot of bridge debt on it,

you just got a lot of holes to fill.

There's just a lot of properties
need, need financial support.

And so it's, it's just difficult
to come up with all that cash.

So those are, those are the
groups that we're seeing.

Um, have, are having a harder time

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Patrick Dunne: Yeah.

Brandon, if you like to just
put some numbers to it, um, if

you bought a property in 2021.

Uh, everyone was buying with the
floating rate bridge debt, you know,

we've kind of beaten that horse, um,
but cause interest rates were so low.

And so the typical structure of that loan
of those loans were an initial three year

term with two, one year extension options.

So if you bought in 2021, your initial
maturity was last year in 2024.

And if you couldn't refinance into
something permanent, you've got your

first annual extension option and
lenders were, uh, I think across the

board, largely willing to play ball
with extension one, which happened 2024

could be happening right now if you
bought in 2022 and what, but what it

means is it in order to execute that
is you've got to pay an extension fee,

you might have to buy a new appraisal.

Okay.

You've got to do a new property condition
assessment, you're going to have to buy

a new rate cap for another 12 months,
and you know, you total all that up,

and on a, you know, a smaller property,
a property our size, it's going to

be a few hundred thousand dollars.

On a bigger property, it's going to
be, you know, over seven figures.

Just to, to keep going for another year.

And, but that largely happened, and well,
So, what is happening now, or what we've

been reading and hearing is happening
now, is extension 2 is coming around,

and the idea with extension 1 was, hey,
we'll give you another 12 months to

get you prepared for a full takeout to
where we can get paid off and get out.

Uh, well, a lot of people, um, still don't
have the NOI capable of refinancing the

cost of the loan, plus The cost of the
extra money that they had to put in to

extend it and so They're in the same spot

and going back to the lender and saying
hey, we would like to extend again and

Lenders are definitely tightening how
they are going about those extensions

And not that they're not doing them, but
they're, you know, going a lot more to the

letter of the law of the loan agreement
than you, they were the first time around.

And the idea is I think they're
trying to slowly push everyone out.

Um, and so I, I know we've got, loan
maturities are like a big discussion

and we can, I've got some numbers behind
that too, but, um, I'll, I'll leave

it there with kind of the extension
options and what's been happening.

Brandon Giella: Yeah, I think
that's an interesting point.

So we were talking just before
this, uh, about this kind of like

debt wall, you know, maturity.

Uh, there was this report I read.

I can't remember.

I think it was from Goldman.

Don't, don't quote me.

But I think it was from Goldman saying
that there was this wall of debt that

was maturing in the last latter half of.

Twenty twenty five.

Um, I think I want to say it was
like 80 billion or something like

that within especially the commercial
Sector and so I think there's been

some talk about wow that all these
these uh loans are coming to mature

and if If properties can't refinance,
there's going to be some trouble, some,

some bigger impacts into the market.

Some people have talked about contagion
and how it affects other things.

But you guys mentioned that not
super worried about that because

there, there are lenders don't
want to take that asset back on.

There's a lot of other
things that come with that.

They're not set up to do that.

So ideally they'd like to
refinance and figure things out.

And Patrick, you're saying like
that is the case, but it is

getting a little bit harder.

Is, is that right?

Am I tracking with that story?

Patrick Dunne: Yeah, well, okay, let
me paint a picture for you guys and

you guys tell me if you think that
the looming debt wall is going to be

catastrophic or if it's just going to
be, you know, something that really

stinks to have to work through.

Um, okay, the Mortgage Bankers
Association put out a study about 2025

commercial real estate loan maturities.

And they estimate that about a
trillion dollars of commercial real

estate debt is coming due in 2025,

uh, which is a big number, that's
about, you know, a fifth of all of

the commercial real estate debt that's
apparently outstanding, about 5 trillion.

So, there's a trillion outstanding,
um, they estimate that 14 percent

of that is multifamily debt.

So, from a trillion, you're at, what, 140
billion, uh, of multifamily debt that's

maturing in 2025, um, then from further,
they estimate that at least 25 percent

of that is, uh, debt held by a bank.

So, that would be, um, fixed rate.

Uh, probably been on the books for at
least five years, um, stuff that you

wouldn't necessarily think is going
to be in a refinancing trouble, like

something originated three years ago.

So take another quarter off of that
and you're under a hundred billion, um,

which is a big number, but of course,
and you know, anyone invested in any

of those deals, um, you know, that's
an important dollar to them, but, uh, I

don't know how much you would guess of
the, you know, 80 million or 80 billion

leftover is like the floating rate bridge
debt, maybe 30 to 50 percent of it.

So I mean, you're in like, you know,
somewhere from 25 to 50 billion of

maturing floating rate bridge debt in
2025 that all have extension options.

So, if

the borrowers have the capital
to extend them, they will.

Uh, a portion will get extended,
a portion will get refinanced.

We're doing one right now that we
extended once last year and are

refinancing, um, here next month.

Um, so, you know, you could be looking
between, maybe around 10 million of

stuff that can't get refinanced and
can't be extended that has a forced sale.

on it.

And that's a big number, but that's a
drop in the bucket, you know, compared

to the total pool of what's outstanding.

Um, you tell me if you
guys feel the same way.

Brandon Giella: well, I am a dilettante
compared to you two, uh, so I don't

know, but that doesn't sound like a lot.

I mean, 10 billion, 80 billion,
anywhere even remotely near that number.

I mean, there's, there's people,
lots of people in the United States

that could literally pay that off,
you know, by just the super rich.

So that doesn't sound like a crazy number.

Yeah, I don't know how that strikes Josh,
but that doesn't sound like a lot to me.

Hmm.

Josh Alexander: to it.

I don't know.

Patrick, if it says that's
a national amount, right?

So I wonder how much of it is,
you know, real estate is all

about where you, where you are.

It's all about the locations and
every location in market is going

to be a little bit different.

If you're in a place.

If you've got, you know, you've
worked through an extension, you've

got your next one up, or you need to
refi, you've got pressure to do so.

I think a lot of what the lenders
are looking at is One, they're

looking at how well you've
performed and what's your plan.

How are you going to take them out?

But then two more market wide,
like in, in, in your, in your, in

the market, you're in local, what,
what's the forecast, what's, what's

the likely, um, trend over the
next, you know, six to 12 months.

Um, that's going to play a big
role and, you know, how many

properties these lenders have.

You think about if they start taking
properties back and, uh, selling them

likely at a loss, and that's going
to impact their whole loan portfolio.

Um, especially these lenders that,
you know, that's all they do is, is

lend to multifamily and, and, and
commercial, uh, And you think back

to like you, like you just said,
these lenders are not set up to own.

Now they figure it out.

You know, they, they got their REO
department and they figure out if they do

got to take something back and I'm sure
they hire a property manager, but, but

if the person that they lent to, who is
supposed to be experienced and able is not

able to get it up to a certain value, I
think a lot of these lenders look at that,

like, what are we going to do different?

How are we going to, like, if we're
not going to be able to devote.

Our, our full time and effort
and energy to getting this

property where it needs to be.

So I think that, you know, that comes
in, comes into, into, uh, play as well.

So it's, what's the
history with this borrower?

What is the, the market?

Where's the market going?

Like, do we, do we think
values are going to improve?

Is there going to be a higher
demand if they need to sell?

Or do we think like lending
conditions are getting better?

And two are we willing to take
this on and manage it ourselves?

And if we are do we think we can
do a better job than this borrower?

So that there's I think a lot a
lot there that you'd have to that's

very specific to each loan and each
property into the different markets

Um, it is a big number, you know, but
but Hopefully like and we're blessed.

I mean, I thank god all the
time that we're in DFW, that

this area is doing so well.

Um, we've got a bright outlook here.

You know, if you have the same
conversation and some of the other markets

around the country, you might not be,
you know, as hopeful, uh, where that

number and depending how much it affects
them directly might sound a lot bigger.

Um, so it is a big number.

It's always concerning.

Like you always hope that, uh, not
necessarily concerning, but it's

always something to be aware of.

Um, but I, I think when, when I hear it,
um, it just to me, it's like, well, you

just got to get, you got to do your job.

You got to, it means focus on,
focus on leasing, focus on expense

efficiencies, uh, try to drive NOI
best you can, um, be, you know, be in

communication with your lenders, like
go to them before they come to you.

Uh, you know, if you can, um, let
them know what's going on, let them

know about your plan, let them know.

That's what we do, right?

We, we put together,
Patrick puts them together.

Uh, our, our like six month, 12
month, um, financial plan to,

to, to where we expect to be.

And this is why.

And, um, if you can couple that with
a really like strong economic outlook

for, for us in our case, for DFW
over those next six to 12 months is

how we think things are going to go.

Then I think lenders
are much more likely to.

To extend even or short term or
just be flexible and to get you to

a place where you can either sell
or put some Permanent debt on it.

So there's just a I guess it goes back.

There's just a lot of context.

I think that needs to be
Included into the conversation

and it's impossible to do that.

Those are great numbers Those are great
stats, but to really think it's you dive

into the different markets than different
borrowers in the different situations

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Yeah, it's a national number.

It's a, it's kind of an average picture,
but there's a lot in each market and how

people are looking at different things.

So what advice, you know, given what we
talked about, this is the last question

given what we've talked about this,
this episode, what advice would you

give to DFW real estate investors or, or
Texas real estate investors in general?

You know, it's kind of the, the kind
of folks that you talk to and have

listeners in the show and read your
newsletter and things like that.

What, what advice would you be giving
them given what you know right now?

Josh Alexander: Be selective Uh,
it's real estate Commercial real

estate, especially multifamily is
still a really great investment.

It's a big need.

Um, I think we're going to see a higher
demand on investment in DFW real estate

too, especially as you see kind of stock
market wobble and different things.

I mean, the stock market is still doing
great relative, you know, it's had a

great run here, but, but I think you're
going to see, um, People start to look

more into real estate again, now that
we're seeing it, you know, start to

falter just a little bit, um, as interest
rates come back in, as those yields, uh,

come in, people, uh, are going to get,
uh, oh, not to mention the, um, bonus

depreciation that's back on the table.

They're just, there's, there's, there's
a lot of, uh, things happening that

are making, uh, real estate investment,
especially multifamily real estate

investment more and more attractive.

Um, now and in the, in the near future,
so I'd say just be selective, uh,

find like kind of the basics, right?

Find properties where you can
add value in great location.

And thankfully in DFW, there's a lot of
great locations, um, and it doesn't have

to be in the middle of downtown, right?

I mean, there's, there's, it's
sprawling, you know, there's, it's

active and growing and in all directions.

So.

Um, be selective, uh, but don't sit it
out because if you sit out, you miss out.

So just stay diligent and, um, find
the right people like we talk about,

make sure that you can evaluate well,
um, and that you can, you can verify

that, that, that it is a good deal, but,
uh, with, with the right professionals

and the right experience around you.

set up great debt.

So we learned, if you have to raise
more money in order to get better

terms, take a chance on yourself and
go out and try to raise more money,

um, in order to set up, uh, set up debt,
that's really going to work for you.

And something that's we're,
we're, we're now big believers.

A lot of our stuff is fixed, but
we're big believers down fixed debt.

But when you're first starting, like
Patrick mentioned, um, the bridge

loans, if you wanted to buy property,
And DFW are in a lot of places across

the country, uh, from 2020 to 2023,
you like, you weren't going to compete.

Like your offer was not
going to be competitive.

If you didn't use, um,
these, this bridge debt.

Now, now it could have been, you
just had to raise a lot more money.

Because the bridge debt was what,
was, was what, uh, allowed you to

use, to get a lot more leverage.

So you could get more competitive,
you, uh, raise less cash.

So there was, uh, there was less
of a, less pressure on the return.

Because there's just less, less
capital to make the return on.

So there's just It just made
sense if you wanted to buy

competitively those last few years.

It's kind of what you had
to do Um moving forward.

I will it was this though Um at the
time the dot plot was what like like

maybe three Like 75 basis points
over the next year and a half.

So you just never know.

So my advice moving forward would be um
Do everything you can try to make the

fixed rate work Uh, and raise more money
in order to do so, unless it's abundantly

clear that rates are going to come in.

You want to write, write them down
a little bit, but generally look for

that fixed rate, uh, bet on yourself,
bet, make sure it's a good project.

If it is, that'll, that the money
will come to it and, um, and go raise

what you need in order to allow you
to get, uh, uh, the debt that's,

that's, that, you know, that, that's
not going to put you in a bind later.

Brandon Giella: yeah.

I feel like we could have a whole
episode about take a chance on yourself,

take a bet on yourself, you know what
that looks like and how you even just

emotionally like go through that, like
even last episode, what we were talking

about, just like, you know, kind of
riding the, the lack of control that

one has, um, but betting on yourself,
betting on your skillsets, betting on

your team, betting on your partners.

And, um, Yeah, i'm just riding it out.

Well guys, thank you so much.

Uh, love your insight as always and uh,
and I hope that listeners investors Uh

folks that are focused on the real estate
market Especially in dfw you get a lot

of value out of your your expertise
because I know I do So thank you, and

uh, we'll see you guys again next time

Josh Alexander: All right.

See ya.

Patrick Dunne: See ya, Brennan.